Curse

MeniaX · Nov 11, 2005, 11:18 AM // 11:18

Having had time to cool down and ponder on everything (and play with it a little...huge exegeration on the running bit, honestly), I feel that while the updates WAS a mistake (that's not a question in my mind) it could be worked to everbody's (legitimate players included in this only) favor. I hope they can rework things so that fire is still a useful skill, if they don't they why would they put it in the game? Only time will tell in the end though... If I had my choice, I'd still throw my vote into rescinding the update and choosing a different option on getting a better handle on the farming problems.

About the other part of the update, the dopple, I don't see why they would make it easier. I could easily defeat it with a lvl 16 of any class before the patch... All this is doing is improving the chance the people have to beat it at lvl 3 when they got ran there. Though, in some ways it is good. I watched a friend battle her dopple (mo/me) for 3 weeks before she finally beat it...

Just more of my thoughts...

Shadowdaemon · Nov 11, 2005, 11:18 AM // 11:18

remember the whining when they nerfed protective bond??? the town were full of idiots saying how it was time to quit GW because they ruined the game for them, then what a week later people figured out a substitute?

im all for farming being nerfed, no matter how hard they make i will still manage, and the more idiots that are stopped because they are to ignorant to figure out a new build, well that makes my items worth more, so good

although i will say the henchmen running from AoE makes it a bit hard to use them, i tried the 15 attribute quest with sanyi tonight(i always wipe out at least twice on it) and i didnt get anywhere, because it seemed like i wasnt getting healed, so when i looked, oh thats why, the henchmen all seem confused, but orion took care of that with a last second fire storm, never seen ice golems move like that

anyways nerf farming all you want, but please dear god fix the henchmen

unienaule · Nov 11, 2005, 11:21 AM // 11:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Hmm... let's review:

Facts:
-Nukers are now entirely worthless. Do not try to argue this; EVERY AoE spell in the game is now in the category of "laughable".
My Conclusions:
-If the grand majority of the population of the game absolutely hates this update, it will be undone.

1) No. Just... no. I have yet to hear a true statement on a forum that starts with "do not try to argue this." I went out with a team of 4 elementalists and we killed everything in SF in the regular amount of time and I got a Drago's flatbow. Three of them were fire nukers. Non-DoT spells are still alright, especially with slowdowns.

2)They don't. You will mostly only hear from complainers. Give it a few days, and this will be gone just like the Prot Bond nerfage.

DeathDealer · Nov 11, 2005, 11:22 AM // 11:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

DeathDealer: Thank you. I don't really think it should be 100% reversed... but it does need to be tweaked. I'm sure all will be set right soon.

Oh, and what was the 1% you didn't agree with? :-P

I'm not sure....just like the number 99 maybe...lol

Makkert · Nov 11, 2005, 11:22 AM // 11:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Hmm... let's review:

Facts:

Nukers are now entirely worthless. Do not try to argue this; EVERY AoE spell in the game is now in the category of "laughable".

Spoken from experience, or from experience of reading in this thread?
I think we'll see how it turns out. It certainly will never be as powerfull in PvE as it ever was. Thank god for that. My ele has nec as secondary. More then once i was kicked from a PUG because I didn't have mesmer (read: echo) as secondary. That was completely ridiculous. A renewal nuker does the same thing. And is equally boring btw. Now, finally an ele that plays PUGs (and doesn't want to wait forever for a group) can escape the standard 'echo nuker' mold. Diversity/originality ftw.

Quote:

-This update's effects in no way are limited to just "Fire Nukers" or "Smiting Monks". Earth Eles, Water Eles, and Domination Mesmers (just to name a few) are also among those who are probably feeling quite affected.

True, but the shock is the hardest on the fire ele, who now for the first time in GW history is hit hard.

Quote:

-Saying that it's good that AoE spells now cause enemies to "run away" is a tad absurd; these spell's primary job is to cause damage according to everything I've ever learned about any AoE spell in the history of RPGs. If ANet intended for these spells to cause enemies to do as they are doing now, they all would have been dumped in the "Protection Prayers" attribute of the Monk class.
-Smiting=Damage. Nuking=Damage. If the spells catogorized as one of these two do not do as they are defined by the community, then they are broken and should be fixed, or their descriptions should be changed to reflect what they actually do.

I believe none of the prot class deal damage.....flavor thing. A quick test on chars by me with firestorm (I know...no comment please) learned that the char moved after 2 or 3 hits. Which is a bit like a player that didn't see the firestorm being cast and is slow on the uptake what is going on.
Yet builds like e/mo smiting made their way in pvp, they were succesfull in spite of the running responses of players. Time will see how aoe will now find a way in PvE.

Quote:

-My first character through the game was a Ranger; my second a Mesmer. Getting groups was never impossible, and when I did get them I was confident that they were not the "PUGs" that many of us veteren players fear because these types of groups do not pick up such classes.

Good point. However many players don't want to wait long times to find a party and finally then have fun. And they are right, they shouldn't have to wait long times. It's in best interest of everyone if the proffessions are balanced.

Quote:

-I have several primary Elementalists in my Guild, and none of them are primary "Fire Nuker" nor "Echo Nuker". Water (in particular, Maelstrom) was the key to the game, not Fire Magic nor Meteor Shower.

Well hello mesmer with Diversion and disrupts! Well hello ranger with disrupts! I guess the primary disrupt classes don't have competition anymore of the Maelstrom ele. A good thing imho.

aron searle · Nov 11, 2005, 11:23 AM // 11:23

A problem i have noticed

Anyone who brings AOE spells into your team is a danger to you.

I cannot stress this enough. We were doing a mission and all was ok then someone cast firestorm, imidiatly some enemys broke of then re-targeted for the casters, behind the tanks.

I do not like the fact that AOE spells are now next to useless, they may as well be deleted from the game as far as teamplay goes

farming has not been affected, these spells are now only useless in groups not for soloing. GOOD MOVE ANET

(this is the first time ive whinged like this, but its the most buggy poorly thought out update ive ever seen).

X Bound X · Nov 11, 2005, 11:24 AM // 11:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoCantz

... its about SKILLS

Ya...

You mean these skills?

Firestorm
Fireball
Flame Burst
Incendiary Bonds
Inferno
Meteor Shower
Pheonix
Rodgort's Invocation
Searing Heat
Deep Freeze
Frozen Burst
Ice Spikes
Maelstrom
Aftershock
Crystal Wave
EarthQuake
Eruption
Chain Lighting
Lightning Touch
Thunderclap [E]
Whirlwind
Balthazar's Aura
Shield of Judgement [E]
Signet of Judgement [E]
Smite Hex
Zealot's Fire
Chaos Storm
Cry of Frustration
Energy Surge [E]
Shatter Hex
Signet of Agony
Chiblains
Desecrate Enchantments
Feast of Corruption [E]
Mark of Pain
Death Nova
Deathly Swarm
Putrid Explosion
Ignite Arrows
100 Blades [E]

Count em up, 40 skills affected by this update.
40 skills that insite varying degrees of frustrating bugginess from the mobs.
Of those 40, 6 are elite, wih one of those elites being the already shunned 100 blades.

Every class affected.The hardest hit being Fire Elementals and Smiting monks (yes they do exist...or at least did.)

You can save your "tough lucks" and "your adapt and overcome nonsense."

40 skills...

You can't justify that.

Jakerius · Nov 11, 2005, 11:25 AM // 11:25

Just like to add
Thanks for screwing over two of your classes. You've totally neutered the Elementalist, and now nobody can trap because all enemies run to the next zone if they get hit by one.
Great way to discourage people from playing

unienaule · Nov 11, 2005, 11:26 AM // 11:26

I can, however, say, go fight. Then come back and talk to me about how it's really not that much harder. I've been fighting all night. Different, yes. Nerfed? No.

Brutaniu Mason · Nov 11, 2005, 11:28 AM // 11:28

The main problem I see with this update is not the issue of adapting to new builds. I could think of plenty of ways to utilize AOE to my advantage. Warriors have a few attacks that deal extra damage/effects to fleeing targets (that were previously NEVER used in pve), eles could play hit and run or hit and make them run :P. Some teams could seriously be unstoppable if you put your mind to it. The problem here is the word team. With this update I have to worry about EVERYBODY ELSE'S build. Prior to this I would form a party with the right classes I would need for the mission or quest and just give them the benefit of the doubt towards having a general build of their class.

If you think that Necros, Mesmers, or Rangers are a complete waste of a slot in parties I feel sorry for you. Most of you are spamming battery or well necros are the only useful necros that would ever get into a party...ever seen what a minion master can do? So many people avoid this gameplay on their necro it makes me sick to my stomach. If you think fire nukers were the vanilla choice for power...wow. Obviously useless in some areas (undead enemies), etc. But hey, refund points are free now, battery necro it up *puke*.

PvE mesmers are AMAZING in the right hands! An enemy boss can be put to shame against a mesmer. If anyone has played this game up to the Fire Islands you know that those mursaat bosses can take HOURS for pug groups to kill, or die trying. If you've never experienced this phenomenon of a problem you probably had a mesmer in your group. Obviously if mesmers would be key for the hardest area of the game, they certainly could fit in to make the easier areas even easier...

Rangers. Rangers can offer so much that other classes cannot. Seeing how most warriors don't think to carry along a long bow, these are your ideal pullers. Poison, spirits, decent tanks and self-healers, good runners, and INTERRUPTS. Probably just as good as mesmers are at interrupting if not better. Rangers played well can make quick work of bosses or irritating monk enemies.

Now when I want one of these three "unpopular" classes in my pve team I will ask them their build/strategy. If they don't respond with what I'm looking for, or I feel they don't realize what is best for this area of the game to play as, I kick them. It's as simple as that. It is not my fault they aren't good with their class--that does not mean they are using a bad or worthless class. The other classes, w/e/mo, are merely more simple-minded to play. Some people can't even grasp these classes. Such as the monks, a lot of people don't realize the importance of 1 Healer monk and the other monk being Protection. I frequently find myself grabbing a player monk and Lina.

Now this is an MMORPG and teamwork is to be expected, but I can only take so much. I've got 8 maxed characters for PvE and I know what I'm doing, and what everyone else should generally be doing in my party to complete a task. If I have to worry about any one noob ele throwing everything into chaos and disorder with careless fireballs and firestorms I will go mad. It is bad enough to organize a group, with the right classes, and each person to have half a brain. When you are completing missions throughout 90% of Tyria you aren't organizing a team for 10 minutes to reach victory. Most of the time in the starting missions you're just clicking and inviting at random, or slapping on hench fillers! It won't be long until party organizers will be requring people with TS and VENT at the Nolani Academy.

Address on Solo Farming:
Seeing how you don't have to rely on the ignorance of pugs to SOLO farm I don't see how anyone should complain about this. To be able to solo armies that are higher levels than you is a little lame in any respects at all. This is just another difficulty farmers will have to deal with, plenty have been implemented, and any decent player will find a new build to overcome them.

Team SF/UW/FOW:
This is for elite players. Organized teams, people utilizing vent/ts, and go inside with the gameplan down pact. A lot of SF and FoW is already spread out aggroing and constant chaos, so focusing on one tank probably won't be too much of a tactic. UW is pretty much one tank and I highly doubt 1-4 parties will be seen entering inside again. If you ask me this is a good thing. You'll still have the same amount of people entering for the drops in one sense or another. Sure the rich will rule with an iron fist and the poor will stay in the dumps longer now, but hey, you gonna blame them for doing good? We were still jealous at them for being rich mofos in the first place.

Running was very minimally affected if you ask me. LBS Officer here, hello all our happy customers... and haters; it didn't change much other than some bugs with chasing AI in my opinion.

Fixes I think ANET should defintely recognize and work on:
Only DOT spells should really be nerfed. Face it firestorm+meteor showers were gg's all the time. Meteor showers are still half decent as you get that knockdown and a chance of landing 2/3 hits if not 3/3. Firestorm COULD still have some purposes where monsters are stuck in one place or you strategize to keep monsters in place, but noobs can still mess up the group casting aoe without a clue--that is my biggest concern.
Naturally I don't think proximity/instant aoe spells should cause fleeing. The damage is dealt, there's nothing left to run from.

Oh and Hundred Blades and Cyclone axe don't trigger Aoe Running from monsters. Tested it myself. Supposedly someone confirmed the same goes for barrage--which is good. If these were to make enemies flee I may have cried.

The key to PvE is controlling the Aggro. As many have said we are naturally weaker than our enemies and outnumbered. Out-smarting them is our only hopes of winning. Random pugs are a handicap more than ever now. Organized groups will have to use a different method now to be succesful, which doesn't mean eliminating aoe all together, as I said think it through and combine builds. It could prove to be quite useful.

However, none of you should be saying that "Now I am being FORCED to play other builds when I was told I could use any and be good." There are plenty of BAD builds out there that you wouldn't say "I am being FORCED to not play this build". You simply don't play it because it is not good to play in certain situations. You can play horrible builds all day long if you want--the choice is yours! Surely it is hard to view it like this at first, a once good build being nerfed certainly angers a lot of people. I was angry at first reading the update.

Overall I think the change is good, but too drastic. 90% of the time aoe spells become useless or even worse, harmful to the group, and defeat the purpose at all of having aoe spells...Enemy AI shouldn't be completely retarded though, perhaps if they moved every once in a while after a certain duration of time. Even step it up a notch to make it so only the more intelligent monsters would only move (caster types/bosses/higher lvls). I don't know if Anet wants to implement incremented intelligence, if they don't already have it, but I'm sure they will do something about this and fast if they want to stay in business. From the responses alone due to this one update they should get the hint that they might have pushed a change too hard this time...

Shadowdaemon · Nov 11, 2005, 11:28 AM // 11:28

uhhhhh hundred blades still works for me, they arent running from it

EDIT: hahahaha i bet ecto will go through the roof, you all better stock up now

*panic n00bs*

Loralai · Nov 11, 2005, 11:28 AM // 11:28

I cannot honestly believe that the "majority" (as you put it) of players begged for this update. Here's what I see as the facts.

-This update was NOT seriously thought through before implementation. Like many updates before it that have seemingly been directed at particularly popular "farming" areas, this one too seems aimed at the 5-man Furnace farms.
-The majority of complaints are NOT comping from PvP players, yet from ill-experienced players who are upset over inequality in the economic trade. (Read: Those who contend that no item should be valued at over 5k, and feel that it is unfair that others can get what they cannot.) I back this up with the decrease in power of the doppleganger, and the new found ease of running.
-If you think prices were bad before, just give this update about a week or two and then watch the prices. I watched a multitude of people start selling off items like Flame Wands and Smiting rods within minutes of the update...(and yes, I was one of them). While these items may be cheap now, when people realize smiting monks and the large group of people who farm regularly have given it up, availability of items is going to drop dramastically, therefor applying the age-old supply and demand theory. Prices skyrocket.
-ANet has bit the hand that feeds. Who do they honestly think continues to play this game? The customer base lies in the farmers, be it soloists or groups. The ones who ask for changes in the Doppleganger strength will still be sitting there trying to beat it when Chapter 2 comes out, they won't need to buy it.
-Complaints of inequality in drops SHOULD NOT cause developers to update the game to completely disable ANY class of skills. And people can scream water elemental all day, but there are problems even within that. Water eles have AoE skills as well, as do smiting monks. If Anet has a problem with Fire Elementalists then maybe they should tweak the questing a bit so that the majority of the elemental skills you acquire along the way are NOT fire.
-FACT: I spent 6 hours yesterday trying to acquire a skill to complete what I finally felt was the perfect Elemental build (not all fire for those naysayers). In one logoff and relogin, it was completely destroyed. My reaction was so utterly P.O.'d I deleted the character.
-FACT: I would much rather pay a monthly fee to a company who will not presume to tell me how to play the game that I purchased to placate whiners. Do NOT put my money in your earnings projections on Chapter 2.

DeathDealer · Nov 11, 2005, 11:29 AM // 11:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by unienaule

I can, however, say, go fight. Then come back and talk to me about how it's really not that much harder. I've been fighting all night. Different, yes. Nerfed? No.

a little more challenging, yes. more fun, also yes. nerfed, maybe but it'll get fixed

unienaule · Nov 11, 2005, 11:34 AM // 11:34

So you're gonna tell me you can't beat a group of enemies that isnt smart enough to coordinate weakness and stoning on the same person? I'm talking about SF here. They pick random targets! I think we're all smarter than some very dumb mobs that cast whatever they have energy for.

Kula · Nov 11, 2005, 11:36 AM // 11:36

At least I hope they have ecto drop more often now. Because I won't be able to afford FoW armor at the rate it will go for.

Fantus · Nov 11, 2005, 11:36 AM // 11:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Hmm... let's review:

Facts:

-ANet has just released the most controversial update in the game's history. Whether you're with those that think it's good or those that think it's bad, you'll all agree this is the biggest reaction in the history of the game.

This is certainly a fact - I never saw that many people bitching, not even when Prot Bond got nerfed...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

-Nukers are now entirely worthless. Do not try to argue this; EVERY AoE spell in the game is now in the category of "laughable".

No, only the AoW with DAMAGE OVER TIME (like Firestorm) are. A Phoenix will still do the same amount of damage since it's instant and the critters don't have time to evade it. The problem now is that it's less likely than before that monsters will stand together in tight knots in a way so that a Phoenix is actually USEFUL.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

-This update's effects in no way are limited to just "Fire Nukers" or "Smiting Monks". Earth Eles, Water Eles, and Domination Mesmers (just to name a few) are also among those who are probably feeling quite affected.

Depends on taken skills of course, but quite possible, yes. Balthazar's Aura isn't really a damage dealing spell anymore, that's for sure...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

-Saying that it's good that AoE spells now cause enemies to "run away" is a tad absurd; these spell's primary job is to cause damage according to everything I've ever learned about any AoE spell in the history of RPGs. If ANet intended for these spells to cause enemies to do as they are doing now, they all would have been dumped in the "Protection Prayers" attribute of the Monk class.

It's "good" in terms of realism. Haven't we all laughed at the AI because it made monsters so patiently standing in a Firestorm to really take every last point of damage it dealt?
Other than that, you're right. Maybe as a consequence, several AoE spells have to be changed now as well. Spells like Balthazar's Aura, Firestorm and the like are largely useless now, except to scare enemy tanks away from you. Now they are nowhere near worth their energy costs. I don't know whether Anet actually intended that, but they could have as well taken these spells out of the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

-Smiting=Damage. Nuking=Damage. If the spells catogorized as one of these two do not do as they are defined by the community, then they are broken and should be fixed, or their descriptions should be changed to reflect what they actually do.

Fire Mages can switch to other forms of damage, like the instantly working Fireballs and Phoenixes. I already tested it and it works quite ok - IF nobody scattered the critters with an AoE attempt before. Air Mages will shine again since they don't do much AoE damage anyway. Rangers, Necros and Mesmers seem to be LARGELY unaffected to me (save the slight adaption in skills every now and here). The true losers of this update are the smiting monks who now have only ONE decent damage spell left - Shield of Judgement. Unfortunately, it's an elite. The second losers are the tanks who can't really tank anymore. THIS is something Anet REALLY needs to tweak.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

-My first character through the game was a Ranger; my second a Mesmer. Getting groups was never impossible, and when I did get them I was confident that they were not the "PUGs" that many of us veteren players fear because these types of groups do not pick up such classes.

Depends on how you define "impossible". Yesterday my Mesmer had to yell "LFG" for 1.5 hours until a group finally brought themselves down to accept her... But yes, IF she gets into a group, it's usually a good one.

Makkert · Nov 11, 2005, 11:37 AM // 11:37

i'll go quickly on the list, i may miss a few..

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Bound X

Ya...

You mean these skills?
Chain Lighting

That isn't really aoe. wether or not affected by the update, I don't know

Quote:

Shield of Judgement [E]

Wouldn't classify this as aoe

Quote:

Ignite Arrows
100 Blades [E]

I think I read in this thread that Cyclone axe isn't affected. If that is the case, I doubt 100 blades is affected. If Ignite Arrows is affected, it will be hilarious. Keep 'm running rangers!

Not sure that type of aoe is affected.

Quote:

You can save your "tough lucks" and "your adapt and overcome nonsense."

40 skills...

You can't justify that.

I doubt you have tested all these skills before you came up with this list, and can justify the correctness of this list. Sorry, I just don't. Doing regular testing myself, I know it can take some time to test something. One can draw general conclusions, but there are quite diverse skills in your list.

kind regards,
Makkert

Sekkira · Nov 11, 2005, 11:41 AM // 11:41

I don't understand what the hell is with people saying that this'll put a dent in farming. I play the game normally and farm, so I see it from two different perspectives.

As a farmer: I don't care, this update HARDLY effects me in the slightest. So it makes Aatxes run away from my Aura or Zealot's. I'm still the only one there to attack, They'll be back for more. It'll make my UW trips a little slower, and a little more boring though. I was enjoying trying to keep myself alive, my health bar dropping dramatically and rising to full again in quick succession kept me alert and the adrenaline flowing.

As a player: My favorite character as I stated before, is my pyromancer, whom I've had since last year's E3 when I first heard of the game and waited in anticipation to play the retail of April this year. Fire Magic needed a buff, pure and simple. In PvP it is practically useless because of the intelligence of players. Now it's also practically useless in PvE as well.

Why do they even keep the fire magic line? Just remove the concept of Fire Magic all together, considering, no not all fire magic is AoE, but the line is based around AoE. On top of that the AoE is pathetically weak compared to the massive damage that can be dished out by every other class. I thought pyromancers were supposed to be the damage dealers of the game?

Sure you can say to use other skills in the line, but considering the line is based on AoE, AoE is the only good spells it has to offer. And who was the blithering idiot who looked at the guild Hamstorm [ham] and thought the concept of their joke build was a good idea?

Only real reason why I farmed is because I wanted to get fissure armour for my pyromancer. But why should I get it now that the character is useless. Seriously considering deleted my Ele and starting my ranger back up again so I can keep that PvP slot open. On top of that I'll delete my farming monk too as the purpose of its existance was to farm for FoW armour and get all skills on it in the mean time.

The time I spent getting those materials? I've been playing since release date. What good are they now that using them on my ele is useless?

Fire elementalists needed a buff, a rather large one. Instead they may as well get deleted.

As for my necro, I'll still be making regular trips to Sorrows Furnace. Minions dealt out more damage than the nuker on the team. Feast of corruption drops mobs so much faster than they could consider running away from it.

Sha Noran · Nov 11, 2005, 11:41 AM // 11:41

unienaule: Yes, I'm sure that a group of four elementalists in a farming group can nuke groups into submission... but trying to use something like that in a real group for something? In my opinion, laughable, as I said. As for your second point, I didn't say they did. I said if they did. If you weren't implying that I was saying they did, then we agree.

Makkert: From experience actually playing. I can't believe people are actually posting their strong opinions on this topic before even playing it. I was on from 12 noon to 12 midnight my time today, and had lots of time to mess around with the update. I still think that it is a solid fact that using a Nuker in an actual group of gamers trying to do something other than a full-nuker farming team is a joke; they're more likely to get you killed by pulling the agro off of the Warrior than do any damage.

Yes, Fire Eles are the most obviously pwnt of any class. I was merely pointing out to those who didn't seem to realize that the update affected many, many more.

I am completely in favor of enemies being smart enough to move out from under (or off from in top of, in some cases *cougheruptioncough*), but many enemies that I tested this on interrupted skills they were in the process of using to start running before the AoE even hits them; as you're casting in some cases. That's a bit... over the top.

I am also 100% in agreement with the opinion that whining about the update before you even get on to check it out is absurd...

0siris · Nov 11, 2005, 11:42 AM // 11:42

I think i got an ulcer from reading this thread...

This is indeed the most controversial update in the history of the game. Protective bond being nerfed pales in comparison to what they did here. nuff said